Forums - SFZ3: questions on V-ism Show all 54 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- SFZ3: questions on V-ism (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=43230) Posted by 26 on 10:13:2001 05:30 PM: SFZ3: questions on V-ism V-ism isn't popular in my area, so i apologize if the answer to any of these questions is just common knowledge i'm ignorant of. anyway: - i've heard that Z-ism has gained some popularity in Japan due to crouch cancels and being able to use 3 Zero counters. could anyone elaborate on these crouch cancel strategies? (i know what crouch cancels are) - at www.g-finder.com/albert/zero3/zero3.html, the Gouki section has him pulling Ryu off the ground with the demon flip. i thought this was only possible in a VC? if it's possible outside a VC in V-ism, would it be possible in Z-ism? - i'm having trouble with Gouki's 'standard' VC. in training mode, i do the following: VC1, d+FK, fierce red fireball, fierce roll, fierce red fireball, fierce roll... (in corner) fireball(whiff), fierce, fireball(whiff), fierce, etc. but when i try to do the red fireball a third time, it comes out as a roll coz there's still two fireballs on the screen. am i doing it wrong? or am i really supposed to be in the corner after two... - V-Dhalsim. i've noticed all his standing normals except FP can buffer into a special (big news, right). is this his strength in V-sim, or are his VC's (as expected) still the main meat of it? - Ryu's confusion VC. my knowledge of how to do it is: VC3, crouch short, crouch roundhouse, jab fireball, hopkick, crossup, repeat. i'm not sure how it works; whenever i land a blow it knocks em on the ground or across the screen and the VC is lost. is it meant to be an end-game chipper? - super freeze. do a super while opponent is in a VC, and the shadows will keep moving. is there any way Z or X ism players can take advantage of this (kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel but thought i'd try). = = = = = other questions: - having trouble killing Z-Guy with V-Nash (well, Z-Guy in general). his standing forward effectively zones me out, and his (punch) super leaves the air out as an option. what are Guy's weaknesses as a character that can be taken advantage of? (not by V-Nash necessarily) - read somewhere that Chikyuu used Mika at the finals at B5. was he crazy, or was his Mika just that good? (was assuming it was V-Mika). =================== Update =================== 2001Nov05 - questions/info on crouch cancel (CC) tactics, strategy would be great. - info/ strengths of Z-ism vs V-ism welcome. - info on playing... Balrog (boxer) Adon Rolento Rose Vega (mask+claw) Guy Cody - my understanding: reset: to end a VC early on purpose to go in for another VC with the same meter, in an effort to negate the effects of damage scaling. salvage: what to do when a VC goes wrong (blocked, floors, knocks out of range, etc). info on resets and salvages for different characters, Nash and Gouki in particular, would be cool. - info on setups for the BAS Gouki VC would be great. - info on the SFZ3 Japan scene? Posted by Combo Master on 10:13:2001 06:31 PM: C'mon, someone help this guy out! Posted by ShoryukenBlast on 10:13:2001 08:03 PM: Im horrible on A3 but I can answer the question about Chikyuu. Yes he did use Mika and is was A-Mika surprisingly. Posted by Temujin on 10:14:2001 02:36 AM: Chikyu used A-Mika and landed lv.1 grab supers with her.. he landed two of them and together they did like more than 50% He can get 9hits from her lv.1 super grab.. I don't know how, I guess he mashes really good. Posted by 26 on 10:15:2001 01:08 AM: *bump* confirmed the second question. the flip grab can grab out of a VC, and works in Z-ism. it's much easier to do too i'd say, i'm pulling it off with about 75% consistency. my only qualm is it seems literally useless in a actual gameplay. any more info on Chikyuu's Z-Mika would be heftily appreciated. Posted by TS on 10:15:2001 02:43 AM: quote: Originally posted by 26 *bump* confirmed the second question. the flip grab can grab out of a VC, and works in Z-ism. it's much easier to do too i'd say, i'm pulling it off with about 75% consistency. my only qualm is it seems literally useless in a actual gameplay. any more info on Chikyuu's Z-Mika would be heftily appreciated. Z-Mika is like Z-Rose or Z-Sodom...she's good and all, but she's not great. GQ Sodom has a history of using odd characters in tourney matches...he won B5 CvS with Sakura/King/Raiden, he used Doom/BBH/Colossus and Anakaris/BH/Son Son in the MvC2 tournament, etc. Posted by TS on 10:15:2001 03:02 AM: Re: SFZ3: questions on V-ism quote: Originally posted by 26 - i've heard that Z-ism has gained some popularity in Japan due to crouch cancels and being able to use 3 Zero counters. could anyone elaborate on these crouch cancel strategies? (i know what crouch cancels are) I don't know if you're talking about Z-anyone... Z-Dhalsim and arguably Z-Rolento are top tier though, and have great ACs. Only differnces I could see between Z/V crouch cancels are that A-ISM ones do more damage, and you can sometime tack a super at the end, and that V-ISM ones are much easier to land, and generally come after a VC (though you cand go into a VC after landing one). quote: - i'm having trouble with Gouki's 'standard' VC. in training mode, i do the following: VC1, d+FK, fierce red fireball, fierce roll, fierce red fireball, fierce roll... (in corner) fireball(whiff), fierce, fireball(whiff), fierce, etc. but when i try to do the red fireball a third time, it comes out as a roll coz there's still two fireballs on the screen. am i doing it wrong? or am i really supposed to be in the corner after two... You mean demon flip instead of roll right? Because you're supposed to be doing those instead... Anyway, you can use regular fireballs after the first red fireball if you want. quote: - Ryu's confusion VC. my knowledge of how to do it is: VC3, crouch short, crouch roundhouse, jab fireball, hopkick, crossup, repeat. i'm not sure how it works; whenever i land a blow it knocks em on the ground or across the screen and the VC is lost. is it meant to be an end-game chipper? Please try and explain the problem more accuarately. quote: - super freeze. do a super while opponent is in a VC, and the shadows will keep moving. is there any way Z or X ism players can take advantage of this (kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel but thought i'd try). what? quote: - having trouble killing Z-Guy with V-Nash (well, Z-Guy in general). his standing forward effectively zones me out, and his (punch) super leaves the air out as an option. what are Guy's weaknesses as a character that can be taken advantage of? (not by V-Nash necessarily) You can't really jump at Charlie at all, unless he's all ready down and you're going for a crossup. Don't really play either character, so I don't know what to tell you. There's a good A3 match at http://www.worldwarriornetwork.com/alpha3.html ...Charlie doesn't win, but maybe you'll learn something or other. Posted by mondu_the_fat on 10:15:2001 03:55 AM: Re: SFZ3: questions on V-ism quote: Originally posted by 26 - i'm having trouble with Gouki's 'standard' VC. in training mode, i do the following: VC1, d+FK, fierce red fireball, fierce roll, fierce red fireball, fierce roll... (in corner) fireball(whiff), fierce, fireball(whiff), fierce, etc. but when i try to do the red fireball a third time, it comes out as a roll coz there's still two fireballs on the screen. am i doing it wrong? or am i really supposed to be in the corner after two... - V-Dhalsim. i've noticed all his standing normals except FP can buffer into a special (big news, right). is this his strength in V-sim, or are his VC's (as expected) still the main meat of it? - super freeze. do a super while opponent is in a VC, and the shadows will keep moving. is there any way Z or X ism players can take advantage of this (kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel but thought i'd try). Akuma: Don't use red fireball. It inflicts less damage. Using blue fireball not only increases your damage, but also reduces your chances of doing a roll to nil. In general, red FB is only useful as "pop-up" so that the demon roll can hit... from what I can tell from your version of the combo (crouching FK -> red FB) you're using the red FB to pop-up your opponent. If this is what you're doing, then try using blue FB after the red FB, so the combo would look like this... VC1 -> crouching FK -> red FB -> demon roll -> blue FB -> demon roll -> blue FB.. etc. You can also try different speeds on the FB, but I've only tried this using blue FB, not red. FP blue fireball is a must for the first hit, but SP blue fireball works for the second and successive hits. V-Dhalsim: most of his moves can cancel into specials even without hitting; this is useful in faking an opponent out... so that you can land a proper VC. "super freeze" -- I can't picture this. What do you mean ? How can you do a Super while an opponent is in a VC ? Posted by noswad on 10:15:2001 06:41 AM: the Ryu confusion VC is supposed to knock them down.. The FB after the sweep is a shadow setup, you do the hopkick to move forward, then jump for crossup. If done right, you should be crossing them up as the get up as your shadow is throwing a FB into their back. rinse, repeat. Posted by 26 on 10:15:2001 11:01 AM: thanks to everyone for the replies, i think i'm learning quite a lot here. on Chikyuu: the guy can really stick it with those 'just-great' characters, eh? i wished i'd seen him in action at B5, musta been shaking things with all those characters everyone's written off.. crouch cancel and Z-ism my question was actually just a follow-up to a post i read some time ago: =========== ("Alpha 3 crouch cancels", posted by Temujin) "Another time you can crouch cancel in the game is after an opponent flips. BAS was using this alot at B5 with V-Cody. He wasn't even using V-Combos that much. He would combo you, and once you flip, he would hit you with an ultra priority move like a jump short. Crouch cancel into jump fierce, then 2-3 more hits once he lands. Most of the time you get dizzy, and he kills you. No VC's necessary. These properties and with the usefullness of alpha counters against V-ism has sparked alot of A-ism (or Z-ism) characters in japan tourneys. I started looking at the Japan national tourney tape and to my delight I see alot of A-Ken's, A-Chun's, A-Vega.. And insane A-Dhalsim and A-Rolento's.. Doing great against the best V-Ism characters." =========== Gouki VC i never thought it could be that simple. everywhere i looked it said "fierce fireball, demon roll, repeat". the blue fireball definitely does the job, and i'm finding it much easier to do. but now that i do get to the corner consistently, i've noticed they tend to fall down behind me after the last demon roll. should i just do the demon roll that brings me to the corner with jab/ strong instead of fierce or is there another way to overcome this? "Alex Combo" (Ryu confusion VC) i see now. my initial presumption was that it was supposed to confuse a blocking opponent into getting hit, so whenever i did score a hit i was in the wrong place(too far to cross up, etc). i tried it letting it all hit from the start and it works beautifully. i'm wondering though, are there any variations to it? my test dummies realized eventually that they just had to block Ryu, but sometimes i would cross up late and the fireball would touch before i was on top of them... super freeze i'm sorry i ever asked the question coz now i think i've raised a few eyebrows on something so trivial. i noticed if you perform a super while the opponent is in a VC (VC hasn't hit you yet), your opponent's shadows keep moving while everything else is frozen. i was wondering if this had any significance in actual gameplay at all, but it looks very unlikely. i was only curious. vs Guy Nash's VC works great as anti air for me, which is one of the reasons i love it. but thing is Guy doesn't need to jump, he just pokes at me all day with that standing forward. i try to sonic boom at that range i trade, too far to VC, sweep is too slow and not long enough, can't jump on him while his super's charged, etc. gotta cut this short right now i'm afraid. thanks to everyone who's posted, believe it or not it's all been really informative for me. if there's anything anyone thinks a V-ism newbie would find interesting or useful, i would be very grateful. Posted by noswad on 10:16:2001 04:33 AM: The screen freeze just helps you out in the fact that it can take away the worry of getting his by the invincible ghost. Vs Guy. Have you tried low strong/jabs against the forward? Jump straight up or close the gap if he is abusing the slide. How is he avoiding your booms? If he jumps/rolls late you can try to VC him. You can even try VC the mountain breaker if you have enough time. One thing about s.forward is that it can be jumped. It is good because it has range and can pin, but when I use Guy I shy away from it when poking because it sometimes gets jumped and I die. He also can't have lvl3 all the time. You can drop-thru VC anyhow. If you're worried about the lvl3 that much, try baiting him into doing it. Even if you get hit, fuck it. He doesn't have lvl3 no more. The super isn't the strongest in the game either. It will take him a lot longer than you to build meter again. Posted by mondu_the_fat on 10:17:2001 02:32 AM: 26: Yeah, you can use weaker punches with the demon roll in order to bring you in the right position. However, I've noticed that there are some characters that are extremely hard to hit properly without them falling behind me... Guy for example. Guy almost always manages to land behind Akuma. Posted by Dead-Red on 10:18:2001 12:30 AM: (this is 26. on a friend's account, sorry) using the red fireball actually does heaps less damage than using the blue fireball, by about 20% or so i've noticed. so now my combo looks like this: VC1: jab fireball, fierce demons roll, jab fireball, fierce demon roll, repeat.... fireball(whiff), fierce, fireball fierce... low fierce, demon roll. does about 50% damage but now the problem is popping them up in the first place. the blue hadoken is only so fast(snuffable) and if i kick em before i do it, they end up too far for its shadow to juggle, or they don't fly up. i could probably work those bugs out if i kept my eyes wide open, but this kinda leaves me wondering, wtf is the "standard" Gouki combo? how is it used as anti-air, coz the jab DP scales the damage down by tons. does Gouki have any confusion VCs, or other kinds (besides the BAS one of course). that was a pretty helpful vid Nos, thanks for that. over here i only know one other V-ism player besides myself so u can imagine how helpful it woulda been. that strat where he walked back into his SB, is that standard in play over there? i normally use the d+FK, RK shell VC in the corner, but i've never seen that one and it seems to do more damage(can't seem to do it, is it VC2?). gtg, laters~ Posted by noswad on 10:18:2001 04:15 AM: Vid?? Uh, I never gave you any vid. Walk back into his boom? Sorry man.. I don't know what you're talking about. Posted by 26 on 10:18:2001 07:13 AM: oops, that was TS. sorry, my mistake. anyway in that vid Nash activates the VC, and after seemingly stuffing up, has a routine to follow up. the opponent lands half as creen away, Nash walks back and forth, throws out a slow boom, walks forward, then back into the boom, which Ryu hurricanes into, RK shell, etc... mondu: hey, i'm from manila too, well was, anyway. didn't know SFZ3 was popular there, according to the ppl i've talked to MvC2's racking in the most dough. anyway. i've got that prob too; ppl are constantly slipping behind Gouki once he demon flips into the corner. Posted by TS on 10:18:2001 06:10 PM: quote: Originally posted by 26 crouch cancel and Z-ism my question was actually just a follow-up to a post i read some time ago: =========== ("Alpha 3 crouch cancels", posted by Temujin) "Another time you can crouch cancel in the game is after an opponent flips. BAS was using this alot at B5 with V-Cody. He wasn't even using V-Combos that much. He would combo you, and once you flip, he would hit you with an ultra priority move like a jump short. Crouch cancel into jump fierce, then 2-3 more hits once he lands. Most of the time you get dizzy, and he kills you. No VC's necessary. These properties and with the usefullness of alpha counters against V-ism has sparked alot of A-ism (or Z-ism) characters in japan tourneys. I started looking at the Japan national tourney tape and to my delight I see alot of A-Ken's, A-Chun's, A-Vega.. And insane A-Dhalsim and A-Rolento's.. Doing great against the best V-Ism characters." =========== A-Sim and Rolento are great, and A-Chun is really good. A-Vega is pretty good, and A-Ken is pretty decent as well. But I won't believe that those last two characters can hang with good V-Characters, until I see it myself, which I haven't. I have my doubts about A-Chun as well... quote: "Alex Combo" (Ryu confusion VC) i see now. my initial presumption was that it was supposed to confuse a blocking opponent into getting hit, so whenever i did score a hit i was in the wrong place(too far to cross up, etc). i tried it letting it all hit from the start and it works beautifully. i'm wondering though, are there any variations to it? my test dummies realized eventually that they just had to block Ryu, but sometimes i would cross up late and the fireball would touch before i was on top of them... [/b] Only variation of that VC I know would be to jab DP when you get to the other side (when they get up) and try to go into Ryu's midscreen/anti-air VC if they do anything but block, or if they block wrong. quote: Originally posted by Dead-Red VC1: jab fireball, fierce demons roll, jab fireball, fierce demon roll, repeat.... fireball(whiff), fierce, fireball fierce... low fierce, demon roll. does about 50% damage but now the problem is popping them up in the first place. the blue hadoken is only so fast(snuffable) and if i kick em before i do it, they end up too far for its shadow to juggle, or they don't fly up. i could probably work those bugs out if i kept my eyes wide open, but this kinda leaves me wondering, wtf is the "standard" Gouki combo? You're kind of doing it, even though it's really old. You need to do a red fireball if you want to start the VC with a crouching Forward or something. Fierce blue fireball may work, but I don't know. Jab red fireballs will also work in that VC, just FYI. quote: how is it used as anti-air, coz the jab DP scales the damage down by tons. IIRC it's VC1, Jab DP, jab fireball, and then you just go into the Demon Flip/fireball thing until you get to the corner. quote: does Gouki have any confusion VCs, or other kinds (besides the BAS one of course). Gouki has a rather mean chip damage VC in the corner...it's just fierce red fireball, hopkick, repeat. Or you you could remove the hopkicks, and it does a whole lot more damage, even though it's technically less safe. Other than that, his VCs are just plain damage ones (usually corner juggles). quote: that was a pretty helpful vid Nos, thanks for that. over here i only know one other V-ism player besides myself so u can imagine how helpful it woulda been. that strat where he walked back into his SB, is that standard in play over there? I actually think Crowbait (V-Charlie player) messed up his VC, and that's the safest way to follow it up...V-Ryu, with no meter, really couldn't do anything but block. And even then, he sets himself up for a throw. Ever since the SF 2 games though, shotos have been able to Hurricane kick over Sonic Booms and Yoga Fires and low Tiger Shots, so Hsien (V-Ryu player) figured he'd try his luck. Maybe it woulda worked if he had used a different strength Hurricane Kick, but probably not. quote: i normally use the d+FK, RK shell VC in the corner, but i've never seen that one and it seems to do more damage(can't seem to do it, is it VC2?). I believe VC3. Btw, you may wanna try VC3 {standing Fierce and/or Roundhouse, RK Flash kick}xn instead...I believe it does more damage. Posted by mondu_the_fat on 10:19:2001 02:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by 26 . mondu: hey, i'm from manila too, well was, anyway. didn't know SFZ3 was popular there, according to the ppl i've talked to MvC2's racking in the most dough. anyway. i've got that prob too; ppl are constantly slipping behind Gouki once he demon flips into the corner. It's not... and I'm the only V-ism player in Manila, if the the entire country (BTW, nasa Melbourne ako ngayon). Yes, MvC2 is raking it in, although Tekken4 is taking over slowly. CvS2 is struggling along. As for the blue fireball not popping them up, as I've said, use the red fireball as the first one, since that pops the opponent up no matter what the distance. The DP opener _is_ the standard VC. The damage reduction shouldn't be so bad, and you should still be able to deal 50% damage with the combo. The thing that makes the DP opener so good is that the DP pops the opponent up (which means you don't have to use a red fireball or a close-ranged blue fireball) and it also means that the VC can be used as anti-air (as opposed to using a kick first, which means your opponent has to be on the ground). So the combo looks like this: jab DP -> FP blue fireball -> FP demon roll (etc). I can't seem to get the hang of using JP blue fireball (as TS suggested). And since your looking for Akuma combos, there's a FAQ dedicated in gamefaqs.com. As for using Nash against pokers... try walking a bit forward, then stick out a crouching strong. The crouching strong is one of Nash higher-priority pokes, but it's still not that great. Of course, using this strategy is practically impossible using Z-Charlie, and to use it effectively with V-Charlie would mean you have to learn how to VC on reaction against a counter poke. Posted by 26 on 10:26:2001 03:37 AM: hey, i'm in Melbourne myself. check OzHadou.net for the sf scene if you're interested. this is what i've got so far: Gouki - VC1: crouch short, jab red fireball, fierce demon roll, jab fireball, jab fireball, fierce demon roll.... fierce, fireball, fierce, fireball... crouch fierce, demon roll. - VC1: crouch roudhouse, demon roll (OTG), stand roundhouse, fierce demon roll, jab fireball...(continue as above). the second does chunkier damage but is a bit harder to do. i can only pull it off 80% of the time or so. as for the DP opener, i'm still pretty annoyed by the damage scaling. i do find however it's better to let their jump-in fall through the VC activation, trip em, into VC2. as for fighting Guy, i can see the crouching jabs DO stuff him up aplenty; heck the same thing even works against Adon. but things do get dicey sometimes, and this leads me to ask whether there are any characters who don't have to work as hard to beat Guy (counter chars). i'm thinking Z-Gen or V-Cody... (am i on the right track?) TS: as for A/Z-ism characters.. besides Dhalsim and Rolento, can any of the ones you mentioned be considered top tier? i can imagine A-Ryu being better than A-Ken coz of the hopkick. more questions: how is Rolento used most effectively? i've read about X-Rolento's jumping short of doom, but don't know to much else. any info on Rose would be welcome as well. thanks for everything again guys. this is helping my game very very much. once i get the rhythm on this BAS combo down everything wil be that much sweeter =) Posted by Muskau on 10:26:2001 11:33 AM: Rolento is basically a poker/runaway character, that's the way I use him anyway. I play him defensively most of the time, I wait for the opponent to jump at me, then I jump straight up and throw out a SK. If they walk towards me it's usually a standing/crouching JP. If they stay where they are it's a standing/crouching FP if they are outside JP range. Further away I just throw knives. If they do a laggy move then super jump-in RK into crouching FP. I find that the crouching MK into the spin stick combo does less damage than a FP and gives super bar to the opponent. If the opponent ever get's inside your JP range, throw immediately. Use the delta escape to stay away from corners. Best way to get X Rolento's super to connect is to go for a guard crush, good players never get hit by any of Rolento's supers out of the blue, since they don't combo. That's one of the reasons why many players use X Rolento. That's my usual strategy for Rolento, just be mindful of getting trapped in a corner, it's Rolento's only glaring weakness. Have a nice day... Posted by 26 on 10:27:2001 03:55 PM: that probably explains why i've been getting my ass handed to me when i try a total rushdown with the guy =P sup Muskau? well actually, truth is the SFZ3 scene here is pretty tame so i usually win if i manage to pull out something the average player hasn't seen before. i poked with crouching jab and strong and comboed crouching forward into knives, slide. i used the sticks a lot actually. i tried them in training mode and i find they do more damage, and are nice for chipping. but they do give free meter and i tend to screw them up sometimes. with X-Rolento i go for an airthrow whenever i see a jump in attempt. i can't figure out how to use the delta air raid tho (qcb+P); is it for mixing up between the hopping jump and slide? the delta attack has me stumped too (PPP, then P). i noticed the spike rod in X-ism is different from the one in Z-ism, one bounces while the other doesn't. anyway, i'll try those tactics next time i'm at my arcade. learning to play defensive is gonna be a major effort for me but if it can bring Rolento to top tier, sign me up... looks like this threads departed slightly from the title topic, but in any case any info on V-ism (Nash, Gouki, Gen, or X-Balrog, X-Rolento, ?-Rose, ?-Adon) would still be heavily appreciated. Posted by Muskau on 10:27:2001 05:21 PM: The only moves that Rolento uses are the Knife Throw, Spin stick combo and sometimes the Delta Air escape. Some players like to use the backwards roll to distance properly or bait the opponent. Other specials are usually not used. X Rolento's jumping spike rod is mainly used for out prioritizing anti-airs or for controlling decent when jumping forward or backwards since it cause him to drop downwards. Posted by TS on 10:28:2001 12:56 AM: quote: Originally posted by 26 looks like this threads departed slightly from the title topic, but in any case any info on V-ism (Nash, Gouki, Gen, or X-Balrog, X-Rolento, ?-Rose, ?-Adon) would still be heavily appreciated. What do you mean? Posted by H.A.M.M on 10:28:2001 01:30 AM: this suck Posted by Dead-Red on 10:28:2001 09:14 PM: oh, just that the topic is "questions on V-ism" and now i'm talking about general strats for Rolento and X-Balrog. Posted by Grimori on 10:28:2001 10:26 PM: V-Charlie/Nash vs. Z-Guy: noswad's right. Nash's c.strong should beat out Guy's s.forward. In fact, most of Nash's normals can beat Guy's s.forward. Charlie is a good anti-Guy char. If he goes airborne, Charlie can ground Guy with c.fierce or dash under. Avoid using the somersault shell to much. Guy can air block it and FF chain you when you land. Watch out for guard breaks into supers. Walk up throws at close range are hard for Guy to stop, especially after a blocked boom. Posted by mondu_the_fat on 10:30:2001 01:38 AM: 26: X-Balrog: crouching strong/forward. Abuse it. And master his Super, too. Rose: Scrap V-ism. She practically has no combos to (yuck). Z/X-ism plays pretty much the same, but I think Z-ism is more flexible. Check out my FAQ. It's pretty old (and inacurrate at some points), but it's still useful. Posted by Muskau on 10:30:2001 04:29 AM: Grimore is right, Charlie should beat Guy at the ground game, it's what he's best at in my opinion. Anti-Air is the only place where Charlie has problems (especially against people with high priority jump-ins) But what's funny is that Charlie's Somersault is actually useful when the opponent is trying to out prioritize your anti-air. Posted by TS on 10:30:2001 05:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by mondu_the_fat Rose: Scrap V-ism. She practically has no combos to (yuck). Z/X-ism plays pretty much the same, but I think Z-ism is more flexible. Check out my FAQ. It's pretty old (and inacurrate at some points), but it's still useful. Would have to disagree about Rose having no VCs, she has quite a few, one of which is Dhalsim-proof for sure (though it's in the corner, so I guess that one doesn't count). I also like having my choice of her normals...only ones I ever use that are any different would be her close standing Fierce and far standing Strong for anti air, and the variations of her roundhouse...still like having them around though. Posted by 26 on 10:31:2001 01:00 AM: i agree that Nash's ground game is one of the best in the game, but i stil think Guy can give him problems due to his range. if Nash whiffs a crouching strong Guy can still poke with standing forward on reaction. am i using it wrong? i'm assuming that i should stick out strong whenever Guy's in range for that forward kick. slide seems to beat out my strong most of the time too. as for anti air, airthrows make up much of my anti air against this particular Guy players believe it or not. now i'm wondering whether i'm just playing scrubs or this might actually be a viable option. alternatively, i just VC through them. as for throwing after a blocked boom... i haven't tried that. i'll try next chance i get. on Balrog: thanks, i already do that as a matter of fact. Balrog is just plain brutality, and has so much power for the lack of complexity it takes to play him (or maybe i'm playing him too simply?). is "c.JP, c.SP, s.FP, (wait) JP dashing straight/dashing upper" the standard string? i'm wondering how to use the turn punch as well. at the moment i buffer it from crouching strong, as a sort pressure tactic. on Rose: i've yet to read this FAQ. i'm guessing it's at gamefaqs.com, i'll check it out later. but incidentally, which ism do ppl generally think she's best in? while we're at it, i think i'll ask how to play Mika as well. standard strings and ism comparisons would be great. Posted by Mouko on 10:31:2001 01:13 AM: sorry to jump in a little late. here are my thoughts. Rose : she has a decent anti air VC, as well as crouch cancel stuff. her strong still has a lot of priority. She's pretty solid. IMO, all her isms are good. Nash : Nash beats guy. Guy is a lot of patterns, but as always, for the most part, is the same sequence. If you know how Guy attacks, he's easy to defeat. But I play against Choi's Guy, which kills me all the time, but that's a different thing, because he's choi . I have had no problems with any other Guy I have faced. Nash beats a lot of characters. He beats V-Gouki and other characters because his normals are REALLY REALLY GOOD. F+RH is highly abusable. You can probably stick it out vs an attacking guy randomly and get major counters more than half the time. Btw, stuff at World warrior network is pretty crappy, I wouldn't point that as a source of info Tier stuff: rolento doesn't belong on top, he has nothing dominating the top characters. Sim by far wins with the best normals. A-sim that is. Due to the fact that he can alpha counter freely (since he doesn't not need guard meter because he plays keep away). I would put gief 2nd, since he has an uncounterable VC and he's a character you must learn to fight against because he's so hard to attack properly. 3rd I would put V-sakura or V-ryu, I rank Gouki lower because he hardly has any priority. as for Gouki vcs : there have been tons of threads on his OTG combos. Don't do his old version (the first daigo one). Use bas set ups. Skim search for Akuma VCs and you'll get a ton of results. if you got more questions i'll be glad to reply. I like talking about A3. Posted by 26 on 10:31:2001 03:31 PM: i didn't think it was that bad. considering i've only played one other real V-ism player in my whole time playing the game, it was a fresh look at it. if you could offer links to ther stuff tho, that would be great. as for Rolento, i'm still keen on learning him. thanks for addressing that though. his f.RK has given me a lot of counter hits as a matter of fact, and it does pretty good guard damage too. Nash is my main gun so any info on him would be great. hard match ups, general weaknesses, zoning, easy match ups, abusable tactics, VCs that aren't in JChen's video, crouch cancel tactics, etc. basically i want to know what a top level Nash plays like. Posted by mondu_the_fat on 11:02:2001 01:55 AM: quote: Originally posted by TS Would have to disagree about Rose having no VCs, she has quite a few, one of which is Dhalsim-proof for sure (though it's in the corner, so I guess that one doesn't count). I also like having my choice of her normals...only ones I ever use that are any different would be her close standing Fierce and far standing Strong for anti air, and the variations of her roundhouse...still like having them around though. "Few". That's the key word. I was exagerrating a bit when I said she has practically no VCs. I just wanted to illustrate that, compared to the VC advantage other characters have, V-Rose isn't quite to par. As for her normals, I compared the hit area and priority of the and moves, including her strong, and found them exactly the same (although I can't confirm this as solid fact -- I have yet to get my hands on the SFZ3 book). Her roundhouse variations are pretty good, though. Overall I still wouldn't trade V-ism Rose for X/Z. Mouko: What's Rose' anti-air VC ? Is it better than the L3 Soul Throw ? 26: Unfortunately, it seems that top-level Charlie is Z-ism... There have been numerous threads to that effect. But I still like V-ism much, much more. Posted by 26 on 11:03:2001 05:24 AM: is that so? well any info on that would still be welcome. Z-Nash is actually where i started off. standing fierce while charging for a boom is very useful. but what about VCs vs supers? the somersault justice does great damage, but VCs can be done on reaction. once again, feel free to enlighten a scrub... edit: also, i've recently been acquainted with the concepts of 'resets' and 'salvages', and understand that latter is done when a VC goes wrong (am guessing either blocked, floors, or knocks out of range), and the former are done to negate the effects of damage scaling. any examples of either would be welcome, expecially for V-Nash and V-Gouki. Posted by Muskau on 11:03:2001 07:02 AM: From what I know, V Nash's Main VC: Somersault into dashing knee into somersault repeat is pretty easy to snuff completely or flip out and punish if mistimed. So it's somewhat risky using him in V-ism, also throwing out a FP while charging a boom is a pretty valuable offensive tactic in itself. In fact I think Nash is pretty useful in any ism, but Z or V is better when going against V players. Mondu should be able to explain about those terms your talking about, I only have a passing knowledge of those terms. Posted by 26 on 11:04:2001 02:02 AM: *bump* mondu: have you checked your pms? if you're indeed in Melbourne i really wouldn't mind a game with you. there's a scarcity of good A3 players around here, let alone V-ism players (i've seen only one other, only plays V-Sak), and you would have no idea how cool it would be to actually see a real one in action. anyway, hope you think about it~ Muskau: he has another one that goes: c.SK xx SK.somersault, RK xx RK.knee bazooka, SK.somersault, RK xx RK.knee bazooka... (repeat into corner).. RK xx RK.somersault, c.FK xx RK.somersault (repeat till meter empties). if the opponent doesn't flip i tag him with a JP, crouch cancel j.FP, cc j.HP, cc P.airthrow. it's less risky in the corner, which is where i generally try to place the opponent with Nash anyway. as for the terms, i picked them up in a CvS2 thread, so am just assuming they apply to Zero3 as well. thanks for the input tho, i'm meaning to examine all sides if i can. Posted by Temujin on 11:04:2001 02:09 AM: Hey 26.. I see you're in Melbourne.. I have a friend named Zoobomb in Sydney.. he was living in montreal for a while and we trained him in A3, but he quit since he couldn't find any challenge in Australia. He uses V-Sagat, maybe you should hook up if you're ever in Sydney. Posted by mondu_the_fat on 11:04:2001 11:27 AM: quote: Originally posted by 26 *bump* mondu: have you checked your pms? if you're indeed in Melbourne i really wouldn't mind a game with you. there's a scarcity of good A3 players around here, let alone V-ism players (i've seen only one other, only plays V-Sak), and you would have no idea how cool it would be to actually see a real one in action. anyway, hope you think about it~ Muskau: he has another one that goes: c.SK xx SK.somersault, RK xx RK.knee bazooka, SK.somersault, RK xx RK.knee bazooka... (repeat into corner).. RK xx RK.somersault, c.FK xx RK.somersault (repeat till meter empties). if the opponent doesn't flip i tag him with a JP, crouch cancel j.FP, cc j.HP, cc P.airthrow. it's less risky in the corner, which is where i generally try to place the opponent with Nash anyway. I got back in Manila last Monday. Didn't get to go around Melbourne much since I had to accompany my mother to all her friends (all them old ladies with "pokie" madness). The only arcades I got to were the ones accessible with the city circle tram, a couple of malls, and that big casino. Didn't see much competition at all except for several chinese players who were more interested in Tekken4. Sorry I can't help with you with "resets" and "salvages" -- this is the first time I heard of those terms, but I have an idea of what your talking about : How can you use the VC you mentioned against a jumping opponent ? Or is it strictly against grounded opponents ? Akuma: after juggling an opponent in a corner and your VC ended, wait a bit. If your opponent air-recovers do a crouching FP -> DP. He has no practical "salvages", although it is possible to switch to a guard break VC if you mess up the damage VC. Anyway, most players will cringe in a corner even if you mess up the VC. Charlie: has a problem with "resets", mainly because all of his moves have rather low priority (even within a VC), and air-blockable for the most part. He has better "salvages" though (as you and TS pointed out in the video you mentioned). Also, from what I've seen, unlike Akuma, Charlie doesn't inspire fear. Whenever I mess up a Charlie VC my opponent always try to hit back... Muskau: You're right. If there was anything I don't like about V-Charlie is that his VCs are easily snuffed (besides, the somersault is air-blockable). Try this: VC3 -> crouching FP -> somersault -> knee bazooka... etc. Strictly anti-air. Requires a _lot_ of timing, but I find it more reliable than starting the VC with the somersault. The crouching FP should hit the opponent early in his jump -- I really don't rely on the VC invulnerability to cover Charlie's ass. Posted by learner on 11:04:2001 06:55 PM: hi guys, nice forum you are discussing here. i have question about v-zangief, could give me some v-combos and about convusion tactic v-ryu, care to elaborate it a little? as well, some v-combos (anti-air, corner trap, mid-screen, etc) thanks Posted by Muskau on 11:05:2001 12:49 AM: Mondu: After the amount of beatings I've taken while using a VC as an anti air with Nash, now by habit I only use VC's after opponents laggy moves or a VC drop-thru anti anti-air and nail them with the VC as they are recovering. But we know that with Nash it's never a guarantee Ryu's most common VC is (corner) VC1 JP shoryuken, (FP, Hadoken) repeat. I think most good players go into the crouch cancel after a little whil, though I could be wrong, I don't use Ryu that much. Posted by mondu_the_fat on 11:05:2001 01:51 AM: quote: Originally posted by learner hi guys, nice forum you are discussing here. i have question about v-zangief, could give me some v-combos and about convusion tactic v-ryu, care to elaborate it a little? as well, some v-combos (anti-air, corner trap, mid-screen, etc) thanks Zangief: VC3 -> KKK lariat -> FP green glove -> (whiffed attack ushc as croucing FK) -> (repeat glove and whiffed attack until cornered) -> OTG throw (50-70% damage) VC3 -> KKK lariat -> standing FP -> (whiffed FP green glove) -> (repeat standing FP and whiffed FP green glove until cornered) -> OTG throw (60-80% damage) Zangief has an "uncounterable VC" consisting of 3 siberian suplexes. I suggest searching for it in the forums since that takes quite a bit of explanation. Posted by 26 on 11:05:2001 07:56 AM: learner: thanks. anything questions you have, i'm sure someone here knows enough about to the game to answer. Temujin: ah, yes i am in Melbourne. the comp is pretty bare here, hopefully i can get into Sydney sometime where i hear the comp is better (for 3rd Strike at least). ZooBomb? i think i've seen that name somewhere actually, might've been on ozhadou.net, which is a site australian players come to set up comp and stuff. mondu: damn. well maybe next time you come over, or if maybe i come over there. my parents are attending a wedding in Manila in February, and asked if i wanted to tag along. so, maybe i'll get another chance at ya j/k. i hope you had a chance to stop by white house, which is one of the best places for comp in the city, especially for KOF and 3rd Strike(or even Daytona, Beatmania and DDR). that Casino (Crown) had SFZ3U (boo), and was one of the first places to have 3rd Strike, but white house gets more traffic by far (it's open 24/7)... CCs: Temujin, thanks for the info on the CCs. i'm really trying to get them into my game, but at this point i'm still too slow to be able to react(on landing), to air counter hits. one day, one day. but until i get the execution down i'm trying to build up as much knowledge on everything as i can, including CCs, hopefully. Nash VC: as for Nash VCs, the biggest trouble i have honestly is trying to keep up with them while juggling towards the corner. i use the FK.knee bazooka sometimes instead of the RK version, since i'm not very gifted execution-wise. but i haven't had too much trouble using VCs as anti air (which is incidentally the version mondu described... VC3 c.FP xx RK.somersault, RK xx RK.knee bazooka, SK.somersault, RK xx RK.knee bazooka, etc). i use my VCs mainly for anti-air actually, and since good anti-air is something Z-Nash doesn't readily have, i'm still convinced V is better than Z. the c.SK xx somersault version works nicely against sweep happy Goukis tho (which i play in large quantities over here). Z-Nash vs V-Nash: what's so good about Z-Nash? not questioning anyone's judgement, but am still wondering why Z tops V. are the differences major, and is it in any way a matter of taste, preference, etc. like does Z-Nash simply have greater potential in the hands of a player with better execution/reflexes, etc. i think i might've mis-explained my understanding of resets; what i know is a reset is done by ending the VC before the meter has expired, to start another VC (with the same meter) in an attempt to negate damage scaling. Nash etc: sometimes when i've cornered the opponent but happen to screw up i just throw out repeated SK.someraults, and it seems to work. i suppose it just looks too deceptively laggy for an opponent not to try something, so they get hit, RK xx RK.somersault, c.FK(whiff) xx RK.somersault, etc. but then again, that's just the people i play. Ryu VCs: tell you the truth i have trouble doing the repeated hadokens in the corner, especially starting the VC with a fireball. so i start with a c.SK xx hadoken, hadoken xx hopkick xx hadoken xx hopkick... SK.hurricane, j.SP, CC j.SP... tho i can only CC with Ryu 3 or 4 times in actual play. the repeated c.FP xx fireball version Muskau mentioned seems much safer for the damage it does, and is what i'd probably use. been having more and more success with Balrog in arcades, mostly against Z-Goukis tho. hopefully one day all these Gouki players will stop calling the guy "just Balrog". crap.. i think i dragged on a bit. i better stop here. end. Posted by Mouko on 11:05:2001 08:39 AM: To Mondu For Akuma: I think its better to, after ending anything with Akuma in the corner, to jump up immediately (meet them in the air) and do a j straight up.short. It has high priority, if they flip out and try to do something, they will get hit. Then you can land and do a fierce DP for really good damage. If they anticipate it and block, you can air throw them (mix up), and often you land before them, so you can guard break with an axe kick (b+rh). Also, if you do an air to air attack and win (like a air HK vs their jump in and you win) or anything that gets you close to them after you attack and they're in the air, you can do some crouch cancel set ups as well. Example. You do an air to air HK and win, you can jump towards them with a cross up j.foward, crouch cancel jump the opposite direction cross up j.foward, land, juggle with b+fierce then demon flip or end it anyway you like. I usually do jab instead of fierce, cause fierce often whiffs. To Learner V-Gief - his basic VCs are Activate with strong + foward or fierce + rh -> KKK lariat -> s.fierce -> whiff fierce green hand -> s.fierce -> whiff fierce green hand.....etc -> ender this can be ground or anti air, mainly used as anti air. Becareful though, the KKK lariat can be airblocked. The real way to do the VC is to start with an Anti air green hand, but it requires a lot of spacing. In general, you can still get this VC off starting with the KKK lariat. I made a thread on a very advanced Gief VC as well..heres the link. http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...7875#post617875 I suggest read replys by Choi and avoid the rest, a lot of blabbling in that thread kinda ruined it. bah..I just saw Mondu's post on V-Gief..oh well i'll just leave what I put there... To 26 Nash - Nash has good supers. His VCs are nice, but I think he's more useful in A (Z) because he already has the pressure games and high priority normals ALONG with good supers and the ability to alpha counter. He's basically just like Sim. V-sim is good, but A-sim can alpha counter and doesn't need guard bar. Nash has high priority moves and pressures heavily, so he is usually either countering or doing the guard crushing. Posted by 26 on 11:05:2001 09:24 AM: pressure games.. aren't those counterable with VCs? from what i can see the only thing V-Nash doesn't have is the backfist while charging back. as for his normals, i'm a bit confused as to how good their priority is generally rated. does he have more priority in Z than V(dare i ask)? what about anti-air? i can play V-Nash aggressively since i can VC just about anything that jumps or misses, on reaction, whereas i don't have much to play with in Z. more aggresive play, more guard breaks. a vid's worth a thousand words of course. my main guess is that Z-Nash is stronger than V-Nash in the hands of a more technically proficient player, who doesn't need the VC for anti air or for blowing through attacks. Posted by Muskau on 11:05:2001 10:12 AM: By the way Mondu, did you get a recent email I sent you about the Adon FAQ? Posted by Mouko on 11:05:2001 05:25 PM: 26 Nash - Well if you are going to judge it if its based on VCs, if you're playing pressure games with V-Nash, what difference does it make then? If you try to stick out f / b + rh with Nash in V, can't he get VCed? I'm saying, Nash gets pressure games in A PLUS he gets alpha counters and he has good supers. Nash has a whole slew of good moves. Like c.strong, b or f + rh (thrust kick), b or f + foward (sobat kick), his backfist. C.fierce is a good anti air. Far backfist is good and fast. C.strong, s.jab (major counters a lot, like any other). basically you want to get them to the corner, so you can guard crush them with thrust kicks (if you do it with back, you can throw a sonic boom), sobat kicks, walk up c.strongs. If they jump you can meet them in the air (if anticipated) and if they air block your move guard break with backfist or a ground normal. Very good. Abuse thrust kicks. Posted by learner on 11:05:2001 08:37 PM: thanks guys for the combos. some questions though, does v-zangief have any v-corner combos? any suggestion on how to apply pressure in the game with v,a, zangief? i was beaten time and time again by dhalsim, and m.bison (vega), can you share any tactics, strategies? thanks a bundle Posted by Mouko on 11:06:2001 01:47 AM: To Learner His corner one is basically activate -> kkk -> then repeated well timed s.rh's. Gief isn't really about pressure, but more on positioning and patience. You gotta learn to "walk-up" 360. It's usefull when they whiff a move. Use jab for maximum range. Also, if you are having trouble getting in on someone like Sim, KKK lariat hits most of his high pokes, then you mix up c.jabs, jump in knees. It's a "guessing" game for the most part. You must be patient though. Posted by mondu_the_fat on 11:07:2001 02:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by Muskau By the way Mondu, did you get a recent email I sent you about the Adon FAQ? Er... If you mean the one involving Chun-Li, yes. I've been meaning to reply, but haven't gotten around to it (oops). I will, the next time I post. Why don't you make a thread about it ? There's already a Chun-Li thread around the forums somewhere... If you sent any other mail, sorry, I haven't received it yet. 26: Yeah, I think I may have misunderstood the concept about "resets"... try GDawsons combo FAQ. He suggests letting an opponent air-recover, then whacking him again with the VC in order to get around damage reduction. The FAQ offers a couple of examples for a lot of characters. Learner: I think gief has corner VCs, but they mostly consist of OTGing your opponent out of the corner then OTGing them a bit more. I don't have that kind of skill so I never really tried to experiment. Besides, when playing V-Gief I make it a point not to corner an opponent. I like it more when he's all aggresive and attacking me (and straight into a VC). The distance I like to keep from the corner is around the length of the Super Meter. That is, if the Zangief's meter is full, I try to keep my back to the wall. If the meter is 50% full, I try to keep mid-screen, etc. Against Dhalsim, that's another matter. I still try to keep Dhalsim midscreen. Then jump in with knees, crouching JP against pokes, then finally jump in with VC invulnerability against his anti-air then do a combo. Against Sim and Vega, which characters are you using? Sim Vs. Gief is in no way an easy match. The key seems is not to panic, even if Sim gets an uper hand. My victories in these battles are usually due to astonishment at seeing Gief blow through anti-air and juggling Sim across the screen. Vega sometimes gives me trouble, especially with his jumping FP, which Zangief can find hard to meet in the air (Zangief jumps then Vega jumps with FP, that sort of thing, then poke with crouching SP). Otherwise, if you can manage to stay on top of Vega he shouldn't be a problem. Poor bastard has no priority, and you can flatten him with repeated jumping JP. If you're fighting V-Vega you may want to simply jump and air-block his somersault. Watch out for pathetic L-ism players. While the lariat is quite effective against his cheap throw, it isn't 100% reliable, and it only takes one hit to end the match. Posted by TS on 11:09:2001 01:57 AM: Huh...A-Rose can still do that unblockable thing in A3. Too bad she sorta sucks now... I mean comparatively... Oh yeah, about that Akuma VC (Jab DP, jab fireball, demon flip), I think that's that Charlie-only one...he floats higher than other characters when he gets hit. BTW, grab E.Honda with the punch version of the demon flip and watch him bounce. Don't play Akuma much, like I said before. But I've been screwing around with him in Arcade mode, and I've been doing (VC2/3) Jab DP, {Fierce fireball (regular kind), Demon Flip} until you get to the corner, and then going into stand Fierce xx whiff fireball when I get there. In VC2 or 3 because there's a tiny bit less damage scaling. I'm sure someone else all ready listed this one, but what the hell. I got nothing to do at the moment. Posted by Mouko on 11:09:2001 02:55 AM: This is sorta related. Characters bounce differently after akuma demon flip grabs them..there are some things you can follow up with against certain characters. Vs Chun li or Rose If you demon flip grab them with punch, you can get a free Fierce DP after the grab, but there's a trick. you must do the DP reverse. Also, if you are atempting the BAS otg VC on either of them, after you do the OTG -> s.rh -> you must do the demon flip the oppposite way. Vs E.Honda As TS stated, Honda bounces REALLY high after you grab him. So if you are doing the OTG VC on him, you must do OTG -> Fierce demon flip instead of doing s.rh -> demon flip. Just some quick notes. Posted by Temujin on 11:09:2001 04:08 AM: Speaking of VC resets.. I'm interested in applying guard breaks into my VC's.. There's one I saw with Sakura.. VC3.. Fierce>>whiff fireball>>Fierce>> strong.. (opponent flips), jump up attack, opponent air blocks.. shadow of strong hits, jump up and do Crouch cancel combo of choice.. I haven't really tried it yet.. for some reason I always try to jump strong and CC combo but they always end up air blocking so I have to learn to start either air throwing or guard braking.. Posted by 26 on 11:10:2001 02:33 PM: i remember seeing combos similar to that for Nash and Gouki on BAS' site. my fingers are still too sloppy for them tho, so what i would like to know tho is how well they work in actual play. they look nice in a combo vid but since i've never pulled one off i don't know whether the flipper can counter when they flip, and what to do if they don't flip (does the standing move pop them back up?). Mouko: about being able to VC him in either ism, you've got me there. i've probably just gotten so used to the VC that i've forgotten how great an asset Nash's normals are. that backfist is great as far anti-air, and i'm sure the range is a little better than the thrust kick's. i probably just have to get back into using him. i think V-Nash just seemed so much faster because i've been relying on the VCs too much. so i'll be trying Z next few games i play. so, thanks for that. mondu: i thought it was a pretty decent FAQ actually, being out of gamefaqs and all. thanks, i'll check it out. Posted by TS on 11:10:2001 07:49 PM: quote: Originally posted by 26 i remember seeing combos similar to that for Nash and Gouki on BAS' site. my fingers are still too sloppy for them tho, so what i would like to know tho is how well they work in actual play. they look nice in a combo vid but since i've never pulled one off i don't know whether the flipper can counter when they flip, and what to do if they don't flip (does the standing move pop them back up?). I think pretty much all of the V-ISM stuff on BAS' site is legit. If they can flip, they do in the vid, and the damage scaling gets reset Akuma cross-ups are a bitch... Posted by Mouko on 11:11:2001 06:24 AM: Of course BAS' stuff is legit, some japanese players test the games (so they know the rules) and also, the gamest guides (now put out by arcadia magazines) are written by the programmers. If you think akuma's cross up's are ugly, I don't think you've ever played a karin or sakura. All times are GMT. The time now is 10:45 PM. 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